A popular website claims John Derek played a role in James Dean's death following a "showdown" over Ursula Andress. It's not clear that it ever happened.
"Dean offered Derek a ride in his porch, Derek and Dean went off together and Dean performed oral sex on him a his “sex slave,” making Derek Dean’s last lover. This very much did not happen."
I'm curious to know how anyone could know whether or not this happened, a private moment between two people, other than the two people involved (and they would perhaps be motivated to lie about it in their lifetimes, given attitudes and such about masculinity).
Not at all asking to be accusatory or confrontational. Asking because this sort of "it absolutely positively didn't happen" statement happens a lot in the Beatles world as well, when it comes to private moments between two people. People get so sure about things that it seems to me there's no way to be sure about, so I'm curious as to what the reasoning is with regard to a story I don't have skin in the game for.
Thanks in advance for your answer. I always enjoy your articles and your somewhat parallel journey.
There is, of course, no way to know with absolute certainty, but we can say (a) Dean was elsewhere that night and not with Derek; (b) no other source suggests Dean was absent long enough for the hours-long evening together the authors allege to have occurred; (c) Derek only "confessed" this to two authors known for making things up and the quotes attributed to him after death are very much out of character; (d) there is simply no supporting evidence in favor, but some contemporary evidence in opposition; (e) not to be too crass, but the credible accounts strongly suggest Dean did not perform fellatio on men but received it. When I say it didn't happen, it's my conclusion based on the totality of evidence, but just as one cannot prove pink elephants are not hiding in one's closet, there is always a small possibility the liars suddenly told the truth.
Thank you for taking the time to answer. That makes a lot of sense and I was interested in your answer because unlike the sorts of denials I put up with, you've done your research. The "it absolutely didn't happen" in Beatleland is based on much less cogent analysis (and mostly on prejudice and denial, which of course is not at all the case here).
And then there's of course the near impossibility of proving a negative -- one could prove a positive of such a moment with witnesses, photo/video (now it's my turn to be crass!) but of course there's no witness/photo/video to a non event.
"Dean offered Derek a ride in his porch, Derek and Dean went off together and Dean performed oral sex on him a his “sex slave,” making Derek Dean’s last lover. This very much did not happen."
I'm curious to know how anyone could know whether or not this happened, a private moment between two people, other than the two people involved (and they would perhaps be motivated to lie about it in their lifetimes, given attitudes and such about masculinity).
Not at all asking to be accusatory or confrontational. Asking because this sort of "it absolutely positively didn't happen" statement happens a lot in the Beatles world as well, when it comes to private moments between two people. People get so sure about things that it seems to me there's no way to be sure about, so I'm curious as to what the reasoning is with regard to a story I don't have skin in the game for.
Thanks in advance for your answer. I always enjoy your articles and your somewhat parallel journey.
There is, of course, no way to know with absolute certainty, but we can say (a) Dean was elsewhere that night and not with Derek; (b) no other source suggests Dean was absent long enough for the hours-long evening together the authors allege to have occurred; (c) Derek only "confessed" this to two authors known for making things up and the quotes attributed to him after death are very much out of character; (d) there is simply no supporting evidence in favor, but some contemporary evidence in opposition; (e) not to be too crass, but the credible accounts strongly suggest Dean did not perform fellatio on men but received it. When I say it didn't happen, it's my conclusion based on the totality of evidence, but just as one cannot prove pink elephants are not hiding in one's closet, there is always a small possibility the liars suddenly told the truth.
Thank you for taking the time to answer. That makes a lot of sense and I was interested in your answer because unlike the sorts of denials I put up with, you've done your research. The "it absolutely didn't happen" in Beatleland is based on much less cogent analysis (and mostly on prejudice and denial, which of course is not at all the case here).
And then there's of course the near impossibility of proving a negative -- one could prove a positive of such a moment with witnesses, photo/video (now it's my turn to be crass!) but of course there's no witness/photo/video to a non event.
If John Derek is "mostly forgotten," it's only by the culturally illiterate.